The Immigration Issue

There is a lot of screaming about immigration today; especially since the recent talk of Senator Martinez heading up the RNC. This issue fascinates me--mostly because I don't believe either sides rhetoric.

The conservatives have tied the issue to national security. They say we need to stop people from ilegally crossing the border in order to make sure that we don't allow terrorists and criminals into our country. They say that our failure to do so in the past and our continued failure to stop it now makes us less safe.
I agree.

The liberals say that we are a nation of immigrants and that we should embrace people who come here to make a better life for themselves and their children--who want to be Americans. They say these people do jobs that Americans don't want to do and that we need them.
I agree.

Here is what I don't understand about being mired in either position: I don't understand the liberals refusal to acknowledge that illegal immigrants came here illegally, that while they are in fact performing jobs we need done they are also a drain on our services--our education and health care systems as well as ohter. I don't understand the refusal of conservatives to acknowledge that these people are filling jobs that most Americans don't want and wouldn't do for what they are being paid. I don't understand the liberals refusal to acknowledge that not knowing who is here and who is coming is a danger to us. I don't understand the refusal of conservatives to acknowledge that mass deportation of around 12 million people is not feasible.

Can't we agree that we don't want people coming here without our knowledge and consent? It seems to me that finding a reasonable way to secure the border--not some half-assed fence that won't work--is a good idea.

Can't we agree that we will never be able to round up 12 million people--assuming that we can't agree that we shouldn't have the government round up people? So, shouldn't we come up with a plan to find out who they are? It seems to me that offering them an opportunity to stay here in return for them coming forward and letting us know that they are here and starting to pay taxes is a good idea.

Now, I get it. All you law and order hard-asses want to not give an inch because by definition these people are criminals. I get it--but what do you want more-to be right or to take steps to make this
country safer.

I also get it for all you bleeding hearts. You want to celebrate the rich history of the American melting pot--yadda, yadda, yadda...what do you want more to be true to your philosophical ideology or to make it easier on all Americans to afford health care and to have better education and to make our nation safer?

I get that we all have ideas and ideals about what we should be and I think that is great. I doesn't mean that we shouldn't also have a pragmatic streak. Doesn't mean we should occasionally take half a loaf in furtherance of that goal.

Now, I get that the things I listed above aren't a total solution but we have some pretty smart people here in the United States...do you really believe that if we took the top three experts from each side on the issue and locked them in a room and told them we weren't going to let them out until they came up with a solution that would deal with all of this, that they couldn't do it?

Seriously, if we took all of the politics and divisivness out of the issue and stopped considering who will be in a better position for the next election that we couldn't solve almost anything?

Come on...

Chris

Other things on the immigration issue: hereand here

Comments

[Lee]

So Chris...What's your compromise?

[LizaJane]

Just for the record, from the Mexican Constitution found here:
http://www.ilstu.edu/class/hist263/docs/1917const.html#Article30

Article 32. (14)Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable. In time of peace no foreigner can serve in the Army nor in the police or public security forces.

No compromize. Just stick to the laws already in place. If "selective inforcement" was elimated, there wouldn't be a problem right now.

But I am biased because all crime and car accidents inflicted directly on my family thus far were caused by illegal immigrants or persons born elsewhere. And we suffered and shouldered the price for damages, repairs-replacement. Not to mention the extra work put our police force-some of them I have as neighbors- and thee extra dangers they are subjected to on a daily basis.

I think you are too hard on the fence idea. In reality 700 miles is not easy to walk or drive around-350 miles in either direction, and if put in the right spot it may just deter alot of border crossings, save lives, and ease up the persons-officials, gaurds/patrols who who have to physically be on the ground, and allow ample time for response if needed.

[LizaJane]

From my comment above "or persons born elsewhere" Sorry, that doesn't read right.

I mean people who've come into the country and managed to skip some the steps-some even having criminal records.

Alot of my family and my husband's are originally from other countries but they went through the legal process; waiting years to come here, and paying fees too-on top of completing each step of the laws and procedures.

[Lee]

LizaJane..Did your ancestors get the approval of the Indians when they..er..legally ..er..invaded the lands of..stole the lands from..appropriated or...misappropriated the lands of..er..conquered..er..immigrated to the lands of..er..ethnically cleansed...er..scalped...er.......displaced...er..discovered these savages?

[LizaJane]

Lee, My daughter's great grandmother on her father's side belonged to the Miq Maq-a Canadian Aboriginal. She wasn't forced to marry her husband either! One of my best friends is part Cherokee and another Cree. So STFU. I know how these feel about history and about me. The are way more enlightened then your bitter thoughts.

And of course then and I don't judge anyone NOW about what OTHER people didn't know better about 200 yrs ago.

Holy cow. If you live continue to live like that you are going to be one miserable human being.

0 points for original thought too.

[LizaJane]

sorry for the typos. Sheesh.

[LizaJane]

FYI my grandfather who immagrated was Greek, he didn't come on the Mayflower. He came here all alone, by himself as a very young man, in his teens.

My husbands grandfather, who went through the steps to move his family here after living through the war in Europe -had to prove to US officials he had X amount of dollars (thousands, but I don't remember the exact amount) in a savings in his European bank no to be withdrawn- as insurance in case he didn't "make it" through a year in the US. It was a requirment for immagration.
He had aero-engineering masters degree, yet the US government made him keep money in the bank in case he didn't "make it".

[Some Soldier's Mom]

"filling jobs that most Americans don't want and wouldn't do for what they are being paid."

OK -- THAT's the kicker - for what they're being paid. illegals and even legal immigrants will always be second class citizens if business is allowed to pay substandard wages.

True story: 10 young men, including the son of dear friends, worked commercial landscaping in NY. They worked for $10.00 an hour BEFORE TAXES and worked 50-60 hour weeks sometimes. Got $15/hr for the OT. Each had the chance to buy health insurance -- expensive, but at least it was offered. In late 2005, the employer fired all the Americans and hired illegals -- they worked for $5/hr NO TAXES and NO OT, NO health insurance (wasn't even offered). In another job that also used illegals and one was hurt, the illegal said "just take me emergency room.. they treat me and I no pay". Our friend's son went to the welfare office but was told that while when he had been working he had earned too much to qualify for welfare or food stamps... and the clerk told him "basically you don't have ten kids to support and you speak english so you don't qualify". he lived in his car for the winter and almost starved to death.

so please don't keep harping that they're doing jobs americans don't want. they are simply doing them at wages americans can't afford to pay taxes and live on.

[Some Soldier's Mom]

so unless legislation requires that jobs being offered to "guest workers" has some safeguard that jobs will be offered to Americans first at prevailing wages, taxes and benefits, the "shipping jobs offshore" because the costs of doing business are cheaper somewhere else, will simply be imported to within the US borders.

[catastrophile]

Actually, a meaningful compromise might be possible . . . if only people were honest about what they wanted. Then again, it might not.

The reason Bush went against his base by advocating a "guest worker program" as part of immigration reform is because the party itself is divided on the issue. The cultural conservatives, like LizaJane, are primarily focused on what those brown people are doing to our culture. However, the other half of the Reep base -- the check-writing business elites -- could care less about our culture, they like the cheap labor, because it helps depress wages and makes them money. It was on behalf of the latter group that W advocated a guest worker program.

The Dems are similarly divided. They count on unions as a support base, and unions are emphatically opposed to uncontrolled immigration for the same reason that big business is for it. But the cultural types on the left don't want to see people chased out or forced to live in the shadows, so they support amnesty programs and the like for those already here.

Securing the border would be the safest, easiest, and fairest option. It's odd that only such a token effort is ever made to actually do so. It's also odd that the government would spend so much time chasing down individuals trying to support their families, and so little time going after the companies that exploit them for profit.

That is, it's odd until you understand that it's those big check-writers who are calling the shots. Until you find a way around them, partisan posturing is all you've got.

[catastrophile]

SSM: "THAT's the kicker - for what they're being paid. illegals and even legal immigrants will always be second class citizens if business is allowed to pay substandard wages."

Right on the nose. This is the whole issue, right here.

[LizaJane]

Cat_
stick to your own thoughts and stop saying you know mine about "brown people" or any other issue or person for that matter.

I don't think you'd have anything to say if you didn't have other people's thoughts to drawn on anyway.

If you want to know what I really think, ask me.
There are people in my extended family who came here from Latin America. My husbands stopmom and adopted sister.

You don't know all "brown people" thoughts either.

Talk about lumping people into groups-You are the best at it.

[catastrophile]

Liza, you went straight to the Mexican constitution to justify your argument. We're not talking about illegal Canadians or Britons or Saudis -- and when people talk about "the border" everybody knows damn well what border it is we're talking about. The cultural argument focuses on one culture -- and it's the one you singled out. So don't accuse me of lumping you in.

Also, if you're going to claim that I don't have any thoughts of my own, please show me where I ripped my post from, because I'd be interested in reading it. I almost never see anybody recognize the reasons I gave why it's so hard to get a concensus on immigration.

Or is that just your way of not answering?

[LizaJane]

Cat,
What was my argument?
My post was about inforcing laws already in place about the border. I have a big beef about illegals who break the law in general and don' t have car insurance and are violent. Are you against inforcing laws? I posted the Mexican constitution because they aren't sitting around wondering how to fix anything. They inforce their laws. Duh.

Un-healthy boundries make for disfunctional families. Abuse is the result. It goes both ways too. Many people cross the border or come to this country, milk the system and know exactly what they are doing here, and they go back and forth making money, and *gasp* writing big checks, or sending mega cash back home. Would you ever do that ? Or would you want to be legit if you moved to somewhere else?

There are alot of other folks from around the world who would like to live here too, -living in worse conditions then in Mexico, which is a place of natural resources-tropical weather and resorts-why don't they get the same easy ride? Would could send ships to pick them up. I happen to live very near Little Saigon, in So California, and the Mexican border is about two hours away. I have grown up along side Mexican Americans all my life and they are my friends, co-workers and neighbors in So. Cal. Do you think they want people to pour over the border illegally too?

The problem has nothing to do with culture, or who, why what or where they came from. Take that chip off your shoulder and there would still be a problem that needs a solution.

[catastrophile]

So, you acknowledge you're talking about Mexico, and that you're talking about crime brought here by immigrants. But you don't think that's an argument about culture? Okay.

As to the rest of your comment, you might not have noticed that I agree about securing the border. I just think people need to start facing the reality of why it never seems to happen, despite all the tough talk from politicians.

Reeps just had four years of total control and a national security mandate, and when they finally got around to talking about border security, they wound up doing pretty much nothing on it. That's a fact, and until people come to terms with the reasons why, it'll stay that way. Enjoy.

By the way, I live in Los Angeles, and I also know and have worked (and lived) alongside plenty of immigrants. But I don't see the point in demonizing them for wanting to support their families. And you can't seriously tell me that you'd respect any law that tried to prevent you from doing the same for yours.

[LizaJane]

Enforcing a law isn't demonizing.
Healthy boundries benefit more people then not.

[catastrophile]

LizaJane: "Many people cross the border or come to this country, milk the system and know exactly what they are doing here, and they go back and forth making money, and *gasp* writing big checks, or sending mega cash back home."

This is what I'm talking about, about demonization. "They send money home to their families!?! OMG! That's terrible!"

If you want to fix the problem, secure the border. Then start going after the employers who exploit illegals. If you don't do both of those, there will always be a demand for that cheap labor, and people will keep coming to fill it.

And if you really want to discourage immigrant crime, the best way to do that is to have a mechanism that brings illegals already living and working here into the system, rather than forcing them live outside the law. If they're already outlaws just by virtue of being here, there's no motivation to obey the law, is there?

LizaJane: "Healthy boundries benefit more people then not."

Once again, this has nothing to do with anything we disagree on.

[Lee]

LizaJane:

"...But I am biased because all crime and car accidents inflicted directly on my family thus far were caused by illegal immigrants or persons born elsewhere..."

----

Would you feel 'Less biased' if all crime and car accidents inflicted against your family were inflicted by American citizens?
----

Late in the 18th and into the early 20th centuries, we were plagued with crime waves perpetrated by various organizations composed of
'illegal immigrants' from a variety of countries, most notably, from Italy and Sicily; 'La Mana Negra', (The Black Hand), later to become 'The Mafia', (still in business today), extortion, prostitution, drugs, numbers racketeering, Murder, Inc, Graft and political corruption on a grand scale.
Only an insignificant humber of these people were ever deported.
No public outcries for 'Walls' then...Maybe a wall along the east coast from Maine to Florida?
If that sounds absurd..Just turn the map around 90 degrees anticlockwise...
-----
There are an estimated 12 to 30 million 'so-called illegal immigrants in the USA at this time from Mexico and other South and Central American countries, (OTM"s)...

LizaJane.... How do you propose we round them up and deport them?

Er...scenes of Baghdad, replete with uniformed soldiers going house-to-house come to mind...at least for me.

And, BTW, what does STFU stand for?

[scottie]

Lee your sheltered upbringing is showing.

Shut The F*** Up ?

Perhaps I'm wrong, a lady would never say that. ;0)

[Lee]

LizaJane...I'm appalled! Such unladylike language coming from the mouth of the mother of a descendant of the great 'Sequoyah'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee

I too, am a great-grandson of that proud nation of Native American peoples, in addition to my proud African ancestry.

My point was, (which apparently was lost on you), is that we all have great ancestors, and we all have scoundrels as ancestors too.
You demonized, (as someone else noted), these latter day immigrants because they 'cramp your style'. Well, Milady, some of your immigrant relatives 'cramped' somebody else's style as well....And so it goes.

[Lee]

LizaJane
A correction: YOUR DAUGHTER as you stated, descends from the Miq Mac of Canada. It is one of your friends who descends from the Cherokee, and thus from Sequoyah, I apologize for the misread.

A little history of the Great Miq Mac is available below:

http://www.dickshovel.com/mic.html

[catastrophile]

Dick shovel dot com?

[LizaJane]

"Would you feel 'Less biased' if all crime and car accidents inflicted against your family were inflicted by American citizens?"

Yes. One of the crimes was murder BTW. And Yes, they'd have car insurance!
I don't care if little green men pour over the border. The laws of this state and country are to protect American citizens.

I did not say I wanted everyone deported. I said I want illegal immagration has to be stopped right now.

Again I'D APPRECIATE IF YOU TWO WOULD STOP thinking you know what I think, or know, or need to know. Stop posting "history lessons" as if I don't have any education of my own. Every single one of your posts comes from some false authority-and assumption only existing in your head, just because I don' t agree with your thinking.

Who are you to judge me anyway?
STFU! and yes that's what it means. Ladies can and do say things like that in the year 2006! You think yourself progressive and then come up with that ? Sheesh.

Stop playing psychic and school marm and moral authority! Maybe somebody will really want to talk to you two. Believe me, nobody wants to discuss anything with you right now.
It's a waste of time.

[LizaJane]

Futhermore for my reply:

"Yes. One of the crimes was murder BTW"

So the police department would be able to trace information to lead to who the murderer was so they could be caught- like were they worked, and where they live and what car was registered to whom ...

I do not have to explain all this to a reasonable person.

[LizaJane]

"This is what I'm talking about, about demonization. "They send money home to their families!?! OMG! That's terrible!"

I didn't say it was terrible, again your mind reading and reasonsing stinks. You however do not think about all families. Just the ones you think worthy. What about legit low income cititzens paying taxes?

Why not go all out then? You can give my kid's straight A's out to all the failing kids too. After all, all children deserve good grades right? Sheesh.