Here's your sticker...

Eschaton has a hard on for Joe Biden--and not in a good way. Three posts in three days--here, here and here.

Apparently, their major problem with Biden is that he believes the Democratic Party has to be tough on National Security and must stop being condescending to people of faith in order to win in 2008.

They don't like being criticized and say that Democrats won't vote for anyone who has told them "they suck."

First off, this kind of complaint smacks of someone who was educated by the public school system in the last 20 years. No constructive criticism allowed because it might make their self-esteem suffer. Sounds just like my 9 year old who gave me crap the other day for getting angry with him because he didn't finish his homework.

He told me that it was my job to make him feel good about himself...he is very sorry he said that. He had to sit through my lecture about how it was my job to raise a good, responsible and productive member of society and that my job was NOT to make him feel good about himself. My job was, in fact, on occasion, to make him feel bad about himself so that he would have an incentive to not act in a manner that was contrary to his best interests.

I told him, that at school he might get a sticker just for showing up but not here in Mommy's world and definitely not in the real world...

Biden is right. Dems need to be tough on National Security. Hey, newsflash people--everyone needs to be tough on National Security. You do remember that bad people flew planes into buildings right here in our country not that long ago, right? You have heard the news about Iran and the whole enriching uranium thing, right? Anyone see the news about North Korea?

A strong National Defense doesn't mean we need to follow failed policies but it does mean we need a strong military. We need the best equipment. We need the best training. We need real homeland security--not this ridiculous department that can't find it's ass with both hands. We need to spend real money securing our railways and bridges and infrastructure. We need to secure our borders so we know who is coming here and what they are doing once they come. We need to give first responders the ability to talk to one another in a crisis. We need to know what the hell is coming here in all those port containers and what is flying beneath you in the cargo hold of the airplanes we fly in.

Whether or not it hurts the self-esteem of the Dems, all of this stuff matters. As for Iraq, bad intel or lies or however you view why we went to Iraq, only matters if we are actually going to hold those people accountable. Since we gave all of the guys involved in that Medals of Freedom, I don't think we are going to have a big public lynching any time soon. What matters now is the right policy in Iraq. Anyone who thinks we can pack it in and run home now is mired in a public school mentality where what they feel and what they want counts.

We need to hold the people in charge of things over there accountable. We need to have benchmarks and timetables so that we can see if they are performing. We need to know when companies we paid billions of dollars to aren't getting things done, we need to know when the people in charge of ordering stuff like bullets and helmet pads aren't doing their jobs and we need to know that when mistakes are made, people are asking the right questions so we don't repeat those mistakes. (see Michelle Malkin for the "we're just incompetent" cheer)

I'm sorry if Eschaton doesn't like it, but that's life. Sometimes reality doesn't make you feel good.

As for the Dems being condescending to people of faith, you need look no further than the comment section on Eschaton to see that it's true:

If Joe Biden is referring to fundies as people of faith, he might want to up his habit of crack to ease the pain of his learning that I shall fart in his general direction.
Snow, Stupid Grammar Nazi

It'd be nice if someone asked Biden's office if the Senator really has to spend every fucking Sunday morning on one of the gabfests? Yeah, he's a Papist, so he can go to Mass on Saturday night and he's no obliged to be a miserable bored fucker on Sundays. But every week? For fuck's sake, even the pastor of Praise The Lord And Pass The Salad Baptist Church has a week off.
pseudonymous in nc

People of Faith vs. People of No Faith. Let's see, which are the good guys?
.
Agent Orange

People of Faith?
is that people who purchased the george michael album?
olexicon,Sir Humpty

So basically, Eschaton's problem with Biden is that he is right. He is right for the Democratic Party and right for the American people, he's just not right for the far left. Again, so what? The Kos guy admited they can't deliver an election and at last count, only three out of the 25 candidates they backed made it through the primary. Maybe if Biden sends them some stickers they will stop whining...

Chris

Pat, one of my favorite Republicans, over at ABP, is having a Biden nickname contest. Thought I'd fill you in just to show you that I am a good sport...

Comments

[catastrophile]

The biggest problem that I have with this post, Chris, is that you take Atrios to task for being immature in his criticism of Biden -- then you don't actually address the criticism. For one thing, nothing you linked to takes issue with the notion that Dems need to address national security, but you say that that's 'apparently' something Atrios doesn't like.

I have a different take on the posting. It reads like he's taking Biden to task for reinforcing Reep talking points, practically word-for-word. 'Dems don't respect people of faith.' 'Dems won't protect America.' Sound familiar? These are the drums the Reeps have been beating for years, and Biden expects to echo that sentiment without being criticized for it?

Chris: "As for the Dems being condescending to people of faith, you need look no further than the comment section on Eschaton to see that it's true"

Actually, yeah, you do. The comments section of somebody's blog is, last time I checked, not an official Dem forum. As far as 'being condescending to people of faith' goes, I'm not sure what that even means.

When I think of 'condescending to people of faith' I think of people who bow to the wackiness of the wealthy-televangelist set to get the support of those hypocrites, and are then expected to outlaw homosexuality and get crosses in schools and amputate Janet Jackson's breast to prove how 'moral' they are. Maybe that's just me. Chris, how exactly do you think Dems as a party condescend to people of faith?

Chris: "We need to hold the people in charge of things over there accountable. [ . . . ] we need to know that when mistakes are made, people are asking the right questions so we don't repeat those mistakes. (see Michelle Malkin for the 'we're just incompetent' cheer)"

Atrios: "While this administration certainly has executed this war in an even more incompetent fashion than my wildest nightmares could have conjured, it's also the case that the 'incomptence dodge' really doesn't fly. This was a horribly diastrous idea, from premise, to sale, to invasion, to occupation, to civil war."

Sounds like you and Atrios are on the same page as far as our 'leaders' in Iraq. That's from the first post you linked, where Atrios criticizes Biden for using the "if I had known the President was going to be this incompetent . . ." line.

The Dems were damn fools to think that 'we're gonna do what they're doing, only better' would work in 2004 -- and that really was Special K's whole platform. The administration is not incompetent, and giving them that cover only lets them redeem themselves by publicizing the things they don't screw up -- or questioning the Dems' ability to do any better.

'Kissing the collective hiney of the theocratic right' and 'puffing up your shirt with tough talk on security' are two things the Reeps are very good at, and Biden basically suggests attacking them where they're strongest. If you threw in 'stirring the xenophobia pot' you'd basically have the 2006 Reep platform. From a strategic standpoint, it seems like a losing proposition.

[Chris]

Hey Cat, thanks for your comments. Not sure where to start so forgive the random nature of m response.

I think that in order to believe that National Security and the people of faith things are Rep talking points you have to think that they aren't really issues. I think they are. First, take National Security. I think it is definately an issue and Dems have historically been painted as bad on the issue.

Even if that weren't the case--between the way we have mismanaged IRaq, lost focus in Afghanistan and haven't done didly squat here at home I think the case that we will do things different and better is a good argument. I mean we don't want to say we won't do it at all, do we?

While i understand the logic behind the desire to pull out of IRaq...i don't think it is in our best interests. We have to leave it better than it is today and deadlines and timetables are kind of dumb.

At least a portion of the left is not in favor of every using force--so it is false for them to say they knew it would be this bad when any action we undertook would have been met with that attitude--I always thought President Bush was the wrong guy for the job ...but I didn't believe for one second that he would do Iraq and the National Security thing this badly...others have risen to the occasion and I gave him the benefit of the doubt...

Different and better are the only two choices on the National Security thing--

as for the religion thing--I'm not talking about the Ficticious War on Christmas stuff but liberals are more often condescending regarding faith than not--at least in the circle I have traveled in...there is a lot of talk about philosophy, literature, science, politics but not so much about religion and the tendency is to dismiss matters of faith as not relevant to every day life and to politics...I think it's a mistake--tactically because most people are religious in some way and don't like it when others act as if faith is the last resort of the intelligent and the first resort of the stupid--and second because--honest to whoever--we need that higher calling--I'm kind of at the point where I don't care why people take responsibility and do the right things and look out for their neighbor so long as they do...for most people religion or faith is part of their daily lives--they pray for things, find comfort and strength in higher powers and live their lives certain ways because of it--time to acknowledge it without the smirk or grimace--

Biden has a lot of good things to say on a lot of subjects...and you can't ignore National Security and you can bet your whatever that they are gonna play the values card again--I'm perfeftly comfortable with a candidate who is capable of talking about both without looking like he stepped in dog crap

[Drewsmom]

Dems are weak on defense - period.

[HC]

Chris

I am sorry but I think Joe is a long shot because he is playing the same game as Kerry. Running as an Republican Lite does not win unless you have the personality of Clinton.

You say that Netroots can not deliver an Election, but you keep on supporting the losing tactics of the DLC. Why will you not address the lost of power the Democrats have experienced since the rise of the DLC?

Biden is a DLCer and so is Kerry and they keep trying to copy Clinton's success but they do not have his Political Skill. The DLC is a dead end because they keep trying to find the mythical middle. The only problem with trying to find the middle is the Republicans use the rightward drift of the DLCers to legitimise the racial right. Thus the racial right is no longer racial but becomes main stream, the old middle is now the new left and the old left becomes the racial left. The cycle repeats itself over and over.

Well the netroots are done with Democratic Politicians move to the right. We candidates like Obama who will rewrite the rules of the game into the Democrats favor. Biden is no Obama because unlike Obama who distanced himself from the DLC, Biden embraces the DLC. Unless Biden stops playing the DLC game he will do no better than Kerry and probably worst.

So Chris why do you love the losing ways of the DLC?

[HC]

Chris on the Netrooters on June 13, 2006: "I don't think any candidate they've backed with the "buzz and excitement" of the "netroots" community has actually won..."

Then I named Obama, Weber and Tester as candidates back by the netroots and won. So in this post Chris says about the netroots says: "at last count, only three out of the 25 candidates they backed made it through the primary"

Oops Chris; Did you forget about that Governor from Montana Brian Schweitzer?

But who's counting?

[HC]

From: http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/6/20/142222/362

The Nielsen//NetRatings service reported that in the single month of July 2005, Kos attracted 4.8 million separate visitors. The Kos audience is thus greater than the combined populations of Iowa, where the first presidential caucus takes place, and New Hampshire, site of the first primary, according to the current Democratic party schedule.

[HC]

update

I sorry to say the real number is not 4.8 million separate visitors but 470,000.

Oh well it was fun while it lasted.

[Chris]

ok HC I'll do it--I will write a post on the DLC vs. the netroots--and you got, what 4 past the primary? how do you think they will fair in November?

[Dimmer]

Dems are weak on defense? Totally. 9/11 was on our watch. Ohhh.... wait... maybe not so much.

[HC]

"ok HC I'll do it--I will write a post on the DLC vs. the netroots--and you got, what 4 past the primary?"

That 4 does not include Governor Corzine, Senator Ken Salazar and Democratic control of both houses of the Montana legislature.

I could name more but now I shown you seven examples where the Netroots were on the winning side maybe you will research the netroots wins before you say only seven.

How do you think they will fair in November?

I do not know, but if Democrats fail to take over the House it would be more the fault of the DLC than the netroots.

The netroots is not a centrally control Organization as the DLC, but people around the country who are trying take local control of National Politics. Inside the beltway control of the Democratic Party is a dead end for the Democratic Party. Our best and brightest Leaders in the Party are independent of DLC and the DC insiders.

If Joe Biden wants to be President then he needs to cut his DC ties and start using outside the Beltway thinking. I like Joe, but I afraid that he follow the same losing formula as Kerry.

[Chris]

First off--i don't speak for Biden--I like him I share my opinion but that is as far as the affiliation goes--second--i'll do my research but you have to wait a week cuz i am on deadline for work--third--you just showed that the net roots numbers--the kos numbers were way below convincing--i don't think cutting ties is the way to go about it--to paraphrase one of my favorite quotes we want more people in the tent pissing out than people outside pissing in--so maybe--and i'm not convinced but maybe we want a common ground with the two groups not more severing

[Chris Sears]

Chris, I connect. I know of your Biden connection - how long ago it comes from, and, how you want it to be. I always seem to parallel it with my "Col. Hunt connection", also a one sided but important to me, inspiration into my life. It gets to a point where it doesn't really matter how it happenend but THAT it happened. It doesn't really matter if he knows, but that YOU know , how it came about and which specific nerves he just twinged and changed for you! You CAN go on without him. (I have!) I will always know (tho he doesn't) that he was the reason I took a fork in the road and said YES I will go this route!!!

[HC]

Chris

I did not pick this battle with you, but only responded after you asked where I was on your view of the netroots ("but just my two cents and where the hell areLee and HC I am not used to not being yelled at by them.") While I can not answer for any other netrooter. I think that it would be nice if the DLC and the Netrooters could find a way to work together. That would require the DLC to share power with the local people in the states. Kind a Bottom Up Power Structure rather than DLC's Top Down Power Structure currently preferred by the DLC.

Just my two cents since you asked,

[Chris Sears]

Chris, the reason I think you should let Biden go - or let go of Biden - is that when you start talking about him, you sound better than he does!! I don't like him but I agree with YOU when you talk about him. The two are not equal. Biden is okay to "coach" his team. But he isn't telling them anything new. Hillary already knew about being (or acting like you are) tough on defense. It's pretty basic knowledge and Biden will be left by the wayside. Let him go, and go on with your ideas and find the right person that is the most of those. What we need for you Chris, is a great Dem who can steal it away from Hillary and ain't seen him/her yet!

[Chris]

Biden has always been tough on National Security--that is nothing new--and I hate to give away my secret but half the time when I write about him--maybe more--I quote him or his papers or his speeches or his writings--I know I will get the plagarist charge here, but I do it for the exact reason that you said--you agree with him when I say it or when you don't know it's Biden--but they are his ideas, his beliefs, his positions--as well as mine

[Chris Sears]

He needs you to run his campaign.