Head in the sand over Haditha

Gotta say, with all due respect to BlackFive, that this is crap. Let's wait until the military finishes their investigation is the battle cry of those who take enjoyment out of ripping apart Congressman Murtha. Where were all of these no rush to judgment people when Clinton was being investigated? Where are they on the accusations of Rep. William Jefferson? or any other Democrat? Seems to me there is a lot of casting a wide net to combat the "culture of corruption" mantra...how many times have I read lists of Democrats the Republicans believe are tied to this or that scandal? Umm...plenty.

This is total crap. The investigation would not have gone forward if someone hadn't spoken up. The military was not policing itself it was covering it's ass. Officers, who were more concerned with their careers than they were with their soldiers and their country, mishandled this whole thing from the minute it happened. We know at least this because wrongful death penalty money was paid to the victims families. We know at least this because the military, when first questioned by Time Magazine, said that there was no need for an investigation--until they saw the video. The Marines didn't willingly hand over the pictures taken by the Marines who were sent in to clean up this mess.

We know enough to not play the wait until the investigation is closed game.  Hearts and minds are not won by covering up bad things. They are won by being open and transparent about them, condemning them and insuring that everything is done so that it doesn't happen again.

Michelle Malkin is also playing the "no rush to judgment tune."

Context setting...umm OK...for the alleged incident is here

Read the comments on these sites to see just how far we will go to justify this stuff

This is from today's paper

Comments

[Lee]

Chris,(and I know it's your post cause it's rational.

Do you have a bomb shelter here at 2 babes?
Cause when the Neo-nut=cons read this they will lob all kinds of verbal grenades at you.
Prepare to have your sexual preferences, sanity, patriotism, and lineage challenged.
You may also get some vivid instructions as to what, how large and where to put some very painful things...Good luck.

[catastrophile]

"Don't rush to judgment," when deployed by a partisan pundit, is simply a way of buying time until somebody builds a bandwagon the speaker can jump onto.

In this case, Malkin refers to speculation that small-arms fire might have been recorded by a surveillance drone, which would lend credence to the notion that the victims were giving support or shelter to those who attacked the convoy. This would be along the most obvious line of defense, that whatever misconduct can be proven stemmed from the fact that the victims were supporting enemy operations.

As likely as not, the perpetrators believed that the victims must have seen, if not aided, those who planted the IED that hit the convoy. I'll even suggest -- I have no idea, but it seems likely -- that one or more of the victims probably knew the device was there. I'd have a hard time arguing that the killings were done "in cold blood" -- that case could probably be made, depending on how much time actually passes between the attack and the massacre, but I won't be the one to make it -- and we certainly do need to get some more information.

The thing I'm really curious about is whether all the people who were so up in arms about Special K's comment on meet the press about US soldiers breaking into homes and "terrorizing" women and children are ready to acknowledge that he might have known something they're not willing to admit to themselves -- that a forceful military occupation is inherently destructive, inherently terrifying, and inevitably leads to events like this?

And by the way, Jefferson is guilty as sin. Not that it matters.

[Lee]

Catastrophile
"...Don't rush to judgement?.."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[catastrophile]

Huh?

[Lisa]

"Chris,(and I know it's your post cause it's rational."

And just what the hell does that mean, Lee?

[USMC Steve]

It is just lee's usual form of ranting.

Cat, where have you been all this time? I like your comment on Mr. Jefferson. What is your take on the raid on his offices? That seems to have taken center stage over the fact that he got caught red handed taking that money and such.

For the record, at no time have I or will I say that it is not possible that this incident might have happened. The portrayal of those Marines as cold blooded calculating murderers is categorically bullshit however. If they are pushed far enough, even the most hardened and disciplined troops will break and do eggregious things. And if they did this, they should get hammered for it.

My point to Chris and others is that no one here really knows what went down there, yet many are just ecstatic about being able to categorically state those Marines are all murderers and they did everything they are accused of. How do they know this? Not one single news agency has been provided with a copy of any of the investigations going on as yet, because they aren't done yet. So, where is the Times and others getting their reliable source information?

But more to the point, how do you who have already decided based on no reliable facts that these Marines are cold blooded murderers justify the summary conviction of them that you have already made? And why does it make so many liberals so happy that it may be so?

In the course of an article 32 investigation, no one outside of the military will be provided any evidence, statements, or anything else related to that investigation until it has been completed and action taken against the offenders. To do otherwise would quite probably prejudice the fair outcome of any criminal proceedings. District attorneys do the same thing. It is not really any different, and I don't see anyone going apeshit over that fact.

Chris, as to your hissy fit about rushing to judgement on Jefferson, I am fine with him getting A FAIR TRIAL and whatever comes from it. I have little doubt in my mind that he is a crook, given some of the actual EVIDENCE that has been shown on his activities, but I am in no rush to see him hung as it were. What pisses me off about all this is that our elected pigs seem to think they are above the law, even though there is nothing I have found yet that indicates they are immune from prosecution or exempt from lawfully executed search warrants signed by a judge. If there is, I would like to know what it is. That they seem to think they are above the law is not surprising, but to be this blatant about complaining about it is pretty stupid. As to Clinton, get some oxygen and a clue. He committed multiple felonies, period, and got away with it. It was never about sex at least for those of us with brains who know right from wrong. Perjury is a crime. Obstructing justice is a crime. Witness tampering is a crime. He hung himself on that, and his fellow dems aided and abetted his escape from justice. It is as simple as that.

[Chris]

USMC Steve--you know me better than to think I am happy about this. You also know that this should have been handled right, by the military, six months ago in an open and transparent way, and I think you know that it wasn't. So we know,at the very least, that the military mishandled this and my point was that without people speaking out--without Murtha doing what he did, there probably would have been no investigation.
I have visited too many websites that want to do the "Iraqis behead people so this incident is minor by comparison" thing. We are supposed to be killing bad guys and winning hearts and minds--this incident did nothing for either one of those causes.

As for the fact that these guys were or might have been pushed to far and snapped--that kind of stuff goes to sentencing--extenuating circumstances--it doesn't go to guilt. And if it was in fact a 5 hour systematic rampage going from house to house--cold blooded are appropriate words. I put a new link to an article up in the post--the pay off to these families and how far up the chain of command it goes is really bad...

The military knows how to do this but they chose not to for whatever set of really bad reasons...saying so, demanding an investigation is not happy that the incident happened and using this incident as an example of failed strategic decisions isn't political--it's showing the result of bad choices made by people who are still doing these jobs and still making bad choices--

Maybe you prefer it when Democrats talk in hypotheticals because then you can claim they have no ideas and no plans--but this--at least the cover up part--can be traced straight back to fear to tell truth to power and an atmosphere of loyalty over accountability...

oh by the way...morning sunshine :o)

[darwin]

Chris is clueless. Men under extreme duress break and possibly commit atrocious acts. These are not bad men. These are men who have seen things that would make Chris vomit and wanna go home to her teddy bear and a few shots of Jack. Let's hang 'em says Chris. "All hail to the mighty Murtha, democratic god of the all knowing".

On the other hand, Jefferson IS a bad guy. They have him on tape and video.

What Chris really doesn't get and never will is that for what these young men go thru, there have been surprisingly FEW incidents like this. Whatcha think, this kinda thing happens only when republicans are in office Chris?

Why don't you read up some on past wars. What men go through, their acts of courage, their acts of depravity. Murders and killings happen everyday in the U.S. by bad people. I'll say it again, these are good men who broke. I say council them, treat them, discharge them. The families have already been paid. Doing more to these guys accomplishes nothing. Well, maybe it might make Chris "feel good". Gotta show the world we care about what they think !! How pathetic.

[Chris]

so if they systematically executed toddlers and women they should be counseled and discharged? um..ok..the military guys who have been here at TwoBabes for a while won't agree with you--and yup it matters how we handle this--it matters that we condemn it and punish them for the world and for us and for the other in the military who might think that it is ok to do this because these guys--if you were in charge--got away with it. The extenuating circumstances come in to play with sentencing not with the charge and not with guilt or innocence...and I have been critical of Murtha for lots of stuff--he is no God to me--you have me pegged all wrong darwin

[darwin]

Yeah.......Now I know you're clueless.

"--it matters that we condemn it and punish them for the world and for us and for the other in the military who might think that it is ok to do this because these guys--if you were in charge--got away with "

You think there are others contemplating this? If it happened as the "Mighty Murtha, democratic god of the all knowing" said....then these guys flipped under extreme duress. Come back to reality and apologize for even considering "others" may want to do that. My, my

"if I were in charge" huh?

At least I'd have a modicum of compassion for these guys. You don't think they're torn apart by this? They have to live with this the rest of their lives. All that matters to you is we sacrifice people to show how good we are.

I still have to get the full story. But if it happened the way I think it did and why it did, I'd make every effort help them. As I said.....These ARE NOT BAD MEN.

So far I think I've gotten you pegged pretty good.

Also consider this. Mouthy Murtha spent 37 years in the Marines and retired as a colonel......I'm sure he hung around so long because he wanted that general's star.......and never got it. That's very unusal. Either Murtha is an idiot or he's got something he's hiding.......or both. At the very least sour grapes wouldn't you say?

[Truzenzuzex]

Chris: "Gotta say, with all due respect to BlackFive, that this is crap. Let's wait until the military finishes their investigation is the battle cry of those who take enjoyment out of ripping apart Congressman Murtha. Where were all of these no rush to judgment people when Clinton was being investigated? Where are they on the accusations of Rep. William Jefferson? or any other Democrat?"

So you think it's wrong to rush to judgment, but since the right did it with Clinton and is doing it with Jefferson, it is OK for the left to do it with Haditha? Is that what you're saying?

"The military was not policing itself it was covering it's ass. Officers, who were more concerned with their careers than they were with their soldiers and their country, mishandled this whole thing from the minute it happened. We know at least this because wrongful death penalty money was paid to the victims families. We know at least this because the military, when first questioned by Time Magazine, said that there was no need for an investigation--until they saw the video."

And you know all these things how? Because Time reported it? Well, that's enough for me, by God, let's just give 'em a fair court martial and then shoot 'em.

The left will be appeased. The Arab street will rejoice. The victims will be avenged. Then can all blame Bush and pat ourselves on the back for being "transparent" at low, low price of only four or five Marines' lives or freedom (and that of few Marine Colonels and one SecDef if Murtha gets his way). I guess waiting to get all the facts just won't do if it means delaying the orgy of political recriminations from the left.

I'll suggest that maybe, just maybe, this is a little more important than a sexual pecadillo or a crooked Congressman.

[Chris]

I dare say it is a touch more important--which is why the military should have done it 6 months ago. What part of no investigation until Time brought it to their attention don't you get--which by the way came from a military source...and the two guys who have spoken publicly that got sent in to clean up the mess? and the money--the wrongful death money that was paid which the military itself acknowledges had to go up the chain of command to be approved--I have no problem talking about what we know about Jefferson--or what we knew about Clinton--or what we know about this--

I am telling you now the tried and true, let's wait until the investigation is finished, the investigation takes 6 months, now we can't release any information because it's going to trial, so that the American people don't care two years from now--will not work here.

[Truzenzuzex]

Chris:"I dare say it is a touch more important--which is why the military should have done it 6 months ago."

Chris, you are drawing an awful lot of conclusions from scant evidence. There may be a reason why this thing hung around for 6 months, and it may not be a cover-up. Of course, it could be, but we just don't know yet.

In addition, we have very little in the way of credible evidence upon which to draw conclusions about what actually happened in Haditha. The people that are making these accusations may be wrong, or misinformed, or outright lying. Probably not, but a rational person would demand much more than what we have now before joining Mad Murtha in accusing half the Marine Corps of a conspiracy.

"I am telling you now the tried and true, let's wait until the investigation is finished, the investigation takes 6 months, now we can't release any information because it's going to trial, so that the American people don't care two years from now--will not work here."

Fine. If due process offends you because you want to get busy with your recriminations now, go for it. Hell, rationality is a state of mind, and if you prefer to abdicate that because it somehow makes you feel better, what can I say? For all I know, you may even be 100% correct.

But for me, I will counsel patience. I know what it is like to serve, and I think it is the least we can offer those who stand athwart our enemies. Don't agree with me? That's your right. But don't accuse me of trying to delay the truth until it is irrelevant. That is another conclusion you have too few facts to draw.

[catastrophile]

Chris: "And if it was in fact a 5 hour systematic rampage going from house to house--cold blooded are appropriate words."

I have a feeling a 5-hour rampage would necessarily have produced more victims than we're talking about here. The sequence of events I'm seeing here -- taxi, house, house, and possibly entering a third house -- could have taken place in a few minutes, maybe less.

Steve: "What is your take on the raid on [Jefferson's] offices? That seems to have taken center stage over the fact that he got caught red handed taking that money and such."

I think an awful lot of electees in the Swamp have reasons to want to push the idea that no matter how guilty or uncooperative they are, they don't have to give the FBI access to their records -- that's why this immediately became about the "issues" raised by the raid and not the issues that led to it.

As far as I can tell, the only reason this has never happened before is because, in the past, when the FBI asked for something from Congress, they got it. I'm curious to know how many times (if any) Capitol Police or other Congressional officials (Sergeant-at-Arms or whoever) have "raided" a MoC's office against the subject's will to comply with a subpoena or warrant . . . I find it hard to believe some protocol hasn't been established, since this can't be the first time a Congresscritter has gone toe-to-toe with federal agents, but the sensationalist media would much rather focus on the gossip angle than the technicalities.

darwin: "You think there are others contemplating this?"

Are you saying *these* soldiers contemplated doing this?

We're supposed to be not only proving ourselves to the people of Iraq, but also helping the Iraqi military and law enforcement forces figure out how to govern their country, and showing the whole region what America is all about.

No less important, this will not be the last time a bunch of American soldiers are going to be put under duress -- if you want to establish the precedent that there are no consequences for this kind of action, then you get to keep making that argument for every atrocity that comes down the pike, whether it's committed by US soldiers or against them.

[darwin]

Truzenzuzex - Let Chris have her way. That way she can "feel good" about herself and also feel "morally superior". As we all know, nothing's more important for a liberal democrat than "feeling good".

When the facts finally do come out and we learn what happened, we can listen to Chris again on how important it is to appease the world and "feel good" about yourself.

[darwin]

catastrophile:

"darwin: "You think there are others contemplating this?"

Are you saying *these* soldiers contemplated doing this?"

No. If these guys just flipped because of extreme duress and their friends death, I advocated mercy for these guys, not jail.

Chris thought that was just a little toooooo liberal for her and thought if more soldiers were contemplating killing civilians, they'd do it because "I" let the other guys get away with it.

Nice huh? She can actually believe there's horde's of Marines out there just waiting for a light sentence so they have an excuse to start lighting up civies.

[Chris]

darwin you are full of crap and completely mischaracterizing what I said. Study your history. Study how the military and organizations in general work. Study human nature. I believe in our military and the work they do but incidents like this have to be handled correctly or the bad stuff spreads. We don't do this kind of thing and we need to condemn it. It is not ok. Again, extenuating circumstnaces come into play when talking about sentencing...but I don't think you will hear a whole lot of people advocating that if the accusations are true. In fact, almost every military guy here has said--if they did it they have to be punished. While there can be understanding there can be no excuse--

[catastrophile]

darwin: "She can actually believe there's horde's of Marines out there just waiting for a light sentence so they have an excuse to start lighting up civies."

That's not what I read at all. The point is that once you establish your desired precedent that people can do this with impunity, the next time it comes up, what motivation does anybody have to fight the impulse back? What motivation do the Iraqi forces have? What message does the population receive if US soldiers are allowed to get away with murder because they're angry? I realize that it's fashionable today for Reeps to blow off world opinion, but this is one of those situations where public perception has a direct impact on the war effort.

[darwin]

Chris: "darwin you are full of crap and completely mischaracterizing what I said. Study your history. Study how the military and organizations in general work. Study human nature. I believe in our military and the work they do but incidents like this have to be handled correctly or the bad stuff spreads."

I'm not mischaracterizing anything. I know my history, especially military history and you don't. If you had, you know this happens from time to time in every conflict. Read up on WWII, especially in the Pacific. Sometimes acts of violence were overlooked, sometimes they weren't. Did the miliatry fall apart? No. Do we have loose cannons running around everywhere shooting everyone? No. Has some kind of "attitude" spread and infected every military member? No.

Chris: "We don't do this kind of thing and we need to condemn it."

Ummmmmm......of course we don't. But in the real world, it sometimes happens. I don't think you'll find anyone that's condoned it. All I ever said was at least give these guys the benfit of the doubt for the time being. Murtha the disgruntled Marine and Time Mag are not judge and jury. If anyone deserves it, these guys do.

Now when all the facts come out and these guys turn out to be bad apples and premeditated whatever happened? Toast 'em. If it turns out they just flipped? I say careful consideration must be taken before you destroy someone just to set an example where none needs be set. In the civilian world there's the "insanity defense". I don't think these guys get that luxury in a military court.

But if you insist on being "Hang 'em high Chris" just to show the world we're not like that when they know full well already we're not, have at it. I hope it makes you "feel good". We'll agree to disagree.

And the world doesn't really give a shit about what we do. They're a jealous bunch and will always hate us for what we have, what we represent and what we offer regardless of our efforts.

[catastrophile]

"The world" is a jealous bunch, huh? It's so funny to hear people so casually dismiss the other 95% of the world, and then get all outraged when "they" don't immediately bow to all our demands.

"They" don't hate us for what we have, "they" hate us for always meddling in their affairs to protect "our" interests. "They" hate what men like Donald Rumsfeld and John Negroponte have done around the world for decades.

Some of "them" choose to blame all of us for the actions of those few men, just as some of "us" choose to blame an entire race and/or religion for the actions of a few extremists . . . And that's the whole problem.

[Lee]

darwin(Little'D')
You said to me...Murtha should be hung by his genitals...Something like that.
Then you said above let's give these good men who broke under stress, and (murdered people/my insertion), some counseling??

Is it because I'm an old fart that your solutions sound stupid?
or do they sound stupid because they are stupid??
----
I am also troubled by the cavalier way you just wave off murdering swine as a few good men blowing up under stress.
I guess if they were just short men, under 5' 2", you'd just give 'em intense probation too?
Oh, My bad..there aren't any short marines, now are there?
So when we find these assholes guilty...Put 'em in the slams!
Finally, I guess you would also find that the wonderful young college Duke lacrosse men are reacting from the stress of intense Lacrosse competition, and if they did rape the woman dancer, then it's ok: 'Just some good boys letting' of a little steam'.

[darwin]

catastrophile - "The world" is a jealous bunch, huh? It's so funny to hear people so casually dismiss the other 95% of the world, and then get all outraged when "they" don't immediately bow to all our demands."

Sometimes the truth hurts. I am sorry, because I know thoughts like that don't make you "feel good". No one "bows" to our demands. In fact we make none.........except when it comes to demanding that the slaughter of innocent people around the world be stopped, or demanding a nuclear nutcase disarm, or demanding african warlords stop stealing the tons of food and medicine we send over on a seemingly non-stop basis. Hey, maybe your nifty Unity 08 pipe dream could make some demands too !! Ya think your Pipe Dream 08 thing would demand terrorists stop killing people??? Including us of course. Is that last one asking for too much?

"catastrophile - "They" don't hate us for what we have, "they" hate us for always meddling in their affairs to protect "our" interests. "They" hate what men like Donald Rumsfeld and John Negroponte have done around the world for decades."

You silly twit, of course they hate us for what we have, offer and represent. I mean why else are people beating the door down to get here? I really see nothing wrong with America protecting her interests. I mean France, Germany, Russia, China and a whole boatload of other folks had a bang-up time protecting their interests in that naughty UN oil for food scandal thing. Naughty countries. But I guess in your book those are "good" and "respectable" countries.
Unless you think it's bad to buy oil, I'm not sure what else we have an interest in. Oh, except stopping the spread of that nasty islam and tyrannical dictators. Yeah, we have an interest in doing that. Well, really everyone does but they always leave it up to us.

Oh, and can't you demonize anyone else besides Rumsfeld and Negroponte? Hitler?? Stalin?? Oh wait, sorry....those guys aren't Americans.

catastrophile - "Some of "them" choose to blame all of us for the actions of those few men, just as some of "us" choose to blame an entire race and/or religion for the actions of a few extremists . . . And that's the whole problem."

I love this one. If "they" choose to blame us for the actions of a few well there's just not much we can do about it.

I take it you think islam is a really touchy feely religion, you know, a religion of peace and all that. According to you we blame the entire religion/people for the "acts of a few extremists". My, my that's funny.

Anyway.......in a nutshell....yep. It's not really a religion anyway. A very, very successful cult. You might say "well, since I think I'm intellectually superior.....all religions are cults". Not really, some have evolved, some never fit the profile. Islam fits perfectly. Of course the most obvious aspect of a successful cult is it's control. Control through fear. You know.........death. That kinda fear. Works well. So the tighter the grip on it's people, the more that die and the less chance of anyone breaking ranks or.........like talking back to Osama and telling him what he's doing isn't cool.

Anyway, sorry you hate America and think there's only a few "extremists" out there. Good Luck with your Pipe Dream '08 !!!

[darwin]

Lee - "I am also troubled by the cavalier way you just wave off murdering swine as a few good men blowing up under stress.
I guess if they were just short men, under 5' 2", you'd just give 'em intense probation too?"

Shit happens. In the civilian world these guys would plead insanity and get off. No such luck in the military. All I said was take their frame of mind into account before you destroy someone's life. Extreme duress can cause anyone to do anything.

If there's the slightest hint this was planned or premeditated.....burn 'em.

That's all I've ever said. It's not "cavilier". Cavilier is non chalantly accepting their guilt and demanding their heads without even hearing official reports just so you'll "feel good" and have the illusion of "moral superiority".

[catastrophile]

darwin: "You silly twit, of course they hate us for what we have, offer and represent. I mean why else are people beating the door down to get here?"

So, they all want to come here because they hate us so bad. And you're calling me silly?

darwin: "Oh, and can't you demonize anyone else besides Rumsfeld and Negroponte? Hitler?? Stalin??"

The most important difference between Rumsfeld/Negroponte and Hitler/Stalin is Rumsfeld and Negroponte are actually in positions of power today. If you're interested in going on about historical figures and their relative evilness, that's lovely, but I'm talking about the people we're being asked to believe are Spreading Democracy today.

The fact that you can't answer for Death Squad Johnny or Don "Saddam's a Guy We Can Work With" Rumsfeld -- that you have to go into the same old predictable smear of equating criticism of these criminals with hatred for MY country -- tells me a lot about you.

You claim that opposing this administration means I hate America -- that's like saying that calling 9/11 an atrocity means you hate airplanes. Airplanes are not the problem. Hijackers are the problem. Get it, twit?

darwin: "I take it you think islam is a really touchy feely religion, you know, a religion of peace and all that. According to you we blame the entire religion/people for the 'acts of a few extremists'. My, my that's funny."

I think every religion is as touchy-feely as the individual who practices it -- faith is intensely personal, everyone's is different, and sweeping generalizations about what other people believe are of little value. I believe that YOU and many of your fellow travellers have been trained to see Islam the same way that many Muslim extremists are trained to see Christians and Jews, and I believe that the empowering of radical supremacist bigots (such as yourself) is the major source of conflict in the world today.

You define "Islam" as if it were a single, monolithic cult, without regard to the multitude of sects and subsects and differences of opinion within that faith. You're as much a deluded fool as anyone who believes they'll get to bang virgins in paradise for blowing up civilians.

[catastrophile]

darwin: "I mean France, Germany, Russia, China and a whole boatload of other folks had a bang-up time protecting their interests in that naughty UN oil for food scandal thing."

Oh of course . . . I guess you didn't hear that the reason all the names that got released were of foreigners was because the NSA did the releasing, and was required to black out the names of Americans. Or that Cheney's Halliburton used offshore subsidiaries to circumvent sanctions and do business with Iraq, not to mention Iran . . .

I guess none of those things could have happened in your little world, any more than Rumsfeld could have shook hands with Saddam ON BEHALF OF THE PRESIDENT while Saddam was committing the crimes he's now charged with, or Negroponte could have given cover to terrorist death squads in Latin America . . .

None of those things could possibly have happened in your comic-book pipe dream world, because, of course, that would mean that our "leaders" aren't the pure and perfect paragons that you so desparately need to believe we are, wouldn't it?